The Money Movement / Episode 9

Episode 9

Special Edition: A Conversation with Lawrence H. Summers

Summary & Key Takeaways

Full Transcript

Join us in this very special edition of the Money Movement with an in-depth conversation with Lawrence H. Summers on the global macro environment and the role and prospects for global digital currency.

Mr. Summers brings decades of experience as a leader within the global economic system, and has been tracking innovations in financial technology, the internet and digital currency closely.

Mr. Allaire and Mr. Summers will discuss the current global economic landscape, recent shifts in monetary policy and central banking based on the global economic crisis, including a discussion on the structural and systemic political and economic risks that exist in the current dollar-driven Western fiat banking system.

The two will also discuss the rise of digital currency, including global stablecoins, and the potential they offer for changes in not just how payments and value exchange takes place, but ultimately on the prospects for a new post-Bretton Woods international monetary system anchored in synthetic digital currencies, including how such as global digital currency system might begin to reconcile the growing polarisation between Western economies and China.

Jeremy Allaire: [00:00:09] Hello, I'm Jeremy allare. And welcome to the Money Movement, a show where we explore the issues and ideas driving this brave new world of digital currency and blockchains. So digital currency as an idea has captured the imagination of so many people and it's really been over the last 10 years. It's captured the imagination of students, of engineers, of financial professionals. It's also captured the imagination of economic leaders and increasingly global economic leaders who are grappling with what global digital currency means for the future of the international monetary system and and how really economic systems work in general. I think when people begin learning about digital currency, they can intuitively grasp that it is going to have a profound impact. It's going to lead to a different world, exactly how people have different opinions. But it seems to be something that's really captures people's imagination. And intuitively, they they see those changes. We saw a glimpse of that last week when on The Money Movement, we did a sort of tour de force of showing stablecoins like USDC traveling at the speed of the Internet from Boston to London to Korea to Buenos Aries to Jakarta to Mumbai, and moving between people and businesses in marketplaces all at the speed of the Internet and really trying to give people some insight into how this technology is changing, what becomes possible in the world today. We want to explore the future implications of digital currency with someone who has an incredibly profound and deep understanding of the global and economic and monetary system. This is a person who has helped to steer the US and global economy across multiple White House administrations. And he's been involved with a number of very important companies and projects that have defined the first wave of fintech innovation. So it's a great pleasure to welcome to the show. Lawrence H. Summers, the Charles W.. Eliot University professor and professor emeritus at Harvard University. The US Secretary of Treasury for President Clinton. And the Director of the National Economic Council for President Obama. Welcome, Larry. It's really great to see you. I am very glad to be here. Yes. Thank you. I think the first time we chatted about the idea of global digital currency was literally about seven years ago. A lot has changed since then on many fronts, including in the realm of digital currency. But I think, you know, there's there's increasingly a lot more to talk about than there was seven years ago. [00:02:57][168.9]

Lawrence H. Summers: [00:02:59] I think that's certainly right. And certainly those like you who have been pushing this movement forward in various ways, I think have made substantial progress. I don't think we're anything like in the eighth inning yet, but perhaps we're out of the first inning. Or maybe I should move from baseball to history and get the season started yet. So it's paraphrase Churchill by saying that we're not at the end and we're not at the beginning of the end, but maybe we've gotten to the end of the beginning as there's a flourishing ecology in this area of payments and monetary innovation. [00:03:46][47.3]

Jeremy Allaire: [00:03:47] Yes, very much so. And I agree with you, it does feel like the end of the beginning. And, you know, when we got started, we thought this will take five to 10 years to get to get to the place where you can actually do a lot of things that we imagined were possible and then probably another 10 years before. It really has a big impact in the world and we're kind of right on schedule. But maybe we can start. I want to kind of step away from digital currency first and focus in a little bit on the global economic crisis that's happening right now in front of us. I feel like that the macro context is is really important to ultimately to the subject matter of the future of the international monetary system. And, you know, we we heard obviously from the IMF yesterday or today, you know, their their new forecast for the world economy declining five percent this year. The US economy down eight percent this year. And you know that that it actually even has some assumptions in and around some return of economic activity. Maybe, you know, just just to start. You know, you've got the U.S. and then you've got the rest of the world, you know, this economic crisis. Where do you think we are in this? And and maybe share a little bit of your outlook. [00:04:59][72.0]

Lawrence H. Summers: [00:05:02] You know, I think it's useful to distinguish between three phases Collapse. Bounce back, and slog forward. And I think in the United States, at least for the moment, we're post collapse. You saw that in the fact that unemployment came down from April to May. There were reasons to doubt those figures. But you also saw a big increase in retail sales from April to May. And I went for the first time in three months to a restaurant and sat indoors last night. So I think you're seeing a bounce back from the collapse. That's the good news, right? I think the bad news is that it's far from clear how sustainable and continuing that bounce back is going to be. We have pretty much opened up enough and have generated enough interaction that on a nationwide basis, we no longer really have the level of COVID or over time, the level of COVID death under control and shrinking. [00:06:23][81.0]

Lawrence H. Summers: [00:06:24] And so right now, it looks to me like we're going to be playing whack a mole, right, with outbreaks for really quite some time to come. I doubt we're gonna have another New York because I think there's more awareness of all of this. And so we won't let things go as far as they did in New York before shutting down. But I also don't think we're going to put this securely in the rearview mirror. And anybody who thought it was going to get put securely in the rearview mirror without a vaccine just needs to contemplate what we've seen in the last 10 days in both Beijing and in Germany. So I don't think that's bounced back is going to be to anywhere, anything like the previous levels that we'd reached. And then I think we're going to be slogging forward until we get to a vaccine. I hope that you and I and your listeners will all have been vaccinated a year from now. To be honest, that's not something I expect. I think the lag from the time that a drug company or a set of scientists announce a breakthrough, we have a vaccine till it's been accepted, tested, practically implemented everywhere. I think those are rather long lags. And my expectation would be that it will be quite some time. [00:08:04][100.0]

Lawrence H. Summers: [00:08:05] So I don't think we're going to enjoy as rapid a recovery as people expected. I think something broadly parallel to that is true with respect to the rest of the world where you're going to always have a spots of maximum concern. And my guess is that because of vaccines likely to be available fairly, pervasively here before it's available fairly, pervasively globally. My guess would be that the rest of the world will trail the United States somewhat in terms of recovery. [00:08:45][39.5]

Jeremy Allaire: [00:08:46] That sounds pretty consistent with what I'm seeing as well, I guess, connecting it to the financial system a little bit here. You know, I think first, obviously, this fundamental difference, the U.S. economy, U.S. recovery, U.S. vaccination, et cetera, and then the rest of the world, obviously sharply different abilities to execute fiscal policy X monetary policy, let alone public health responses. So you have this and you have a knock on effect of that, obviously, in terms of international economic activity and market activity and so on. I guess one of the questions that we raised here on the show as well. And I'd love to talk with you about is, you know, are there scenarios where we really do see banking system risks, deeper solvency risks at the corporate and household level? And we can obviously distinguish between, you know, emerging markets and developed markets in the United States. You know, and even here, obviously in the United States, we know fundamentally it looks like the kind of reserve ratios have been strong. But there's also, you know, massive exposures in the form of these collateralized loan obligations, these so-called variable interest interest entities, you know, kind of sub prime corporate debt and these commercial real estate bonds. A lot of these not even clearly on balance sheets. And, you know, if we do see structural unemployment and, you know, whack a mole kind of a situation economically, do we start to see more turnover in in in in in defaults, whether it's in the corporate debt or broader sectors? And does that create deeper systemwide risks? [00:10:36][109.1]

Lawrence H. Summers: [00:10:38] Jeremy, there are a lot of aspects of that very, very thoughtful question. I guess I would say this. Historically, we've had two patterns of economic downturn. We've had the kind of economic downturns that we had, mostly between 1955 and 90s and the 1980s in which inflation became a problem. The Federal Reserve hit the brakes hard. It wasn't able to fully control how how it hit the brakes. And so the economy skidded into recession. But once the Fed took its foot off the brakes and the economy tended to restore itself, that's been one pattern. A second pattern is the pattern we saw most dramatically in 2008. But to some extent, we saw in 2000 and in 1990, which is there was a period of substantial financial excess. The bubble started bursting, deleveraging started happening. And you saw a bit of an economic implosion. More than a bit of an economic implosion in the case of 2008. [00:11:58][79.8]

Lawrence H. Summers: [00:12:01] In both those scenarios, you would expect the financial distress to lead the economic distress here. We're seeing something rather different. A substantial non-financial inhibition to economic activity. And so you'd expect the economic distress in some ways to inhibit to lead the financial distress. Right. It can come from a number of forms. It can come from firms that are doing badly, losing the ability to meet their debt obligations. It can come from those with mortgage obligations, stopping paying their mortgages. It can come from tenants not making their their payments right wing that their landlords don't really have a viable option of evicting them, either because of the law or because if they did evict them, how would they get a new tenant in their place? Or it can come because of international cross-border issues where developing countries have difficulty repaying their debts. And so I think there are very close together. I have come from all of those together. So I think there are a variety of potential sources of financial concern. Frankly, I think that the markets would have imploded completely and we likely would not have a solvent banking system today. [00:13:47][105.9]

Lawrence H. Summers: [00:13:49] If the Fed had not acted to signal its commitment to backstop on a large scale. And I think as long as the government is prepared to stand by the financial system, it's pretty unlikely that you're going to have spiraling bank runs and the like. But I think we are moving to a substantially government dependent financial system, you know, which I think is likely to be what we're dealing with for quite some time to come. And that is close to being without precedent. [00:14:29][40.1]

Jeremy Allaire: [00:14:30] Yeah, I see that. And I think, again, not to overfocus on the United States as we look around the world. Obviously, so many countries do not have the capacity that the Federal Reserve has. The Federal Reserve cannot be the lender of last resort to every emerging market in the world, every economy in the world. That the fiscal and monetary tools are are challenging. They're not going to allow total dollarization to overrun them. And, you know, the this cascades from non to social and political upheaval and the cascading effects of that on on markets and other things, too. [00:15:09][38.5]

Lawrence H. Summers: [00:15:09] I think it's going to be very difficult. And I think you're likely over time to get more finance, more and more financial distress in many emerging markets who are likely to have more trouble having the government stand behind their currency. So I think that's right. [00:15:26][16.8]

Jeremy Allaire: [00:15:27] It's it's it's actually a good segue way into the topic of global digital currency and and sort of the backdrop as as we all know know, Bitcoin itself was sort of borne out of the last financial crisis. It was you know, it has a philosophy behind it, etc, which I think everyone's familiar with. But fundamentally, though, it was this technology kind of rose out of the ashes of the last financial crisis. And we don't need to get into all the details of of of Bitcoin and its role. But I think the idea that, you know, there is a a a fundamental technology and economic innovation, one that in this case actually has been very grassroots. It's sort of being built out of the image of the Internet, being built out by a lot of smart technologists, computer scientists, economists, others. And. Yeah. Versus I think historically, a lot of the economic system innovation was very Top-Down planned, as it were. But, you know, we're now in another global economic situation. Unpredictable, as we've just discussed, exactly how that plays out and and the role of currencies, the role of of global currencies, reserve currencies, how nations around the world manage their own fiscal policies in the face of some of the stresses that are now happening. You know, it kind of creates this environment where there it's possible to start imagining new possibilities in the international monetary system around digital currency. Then maybe before we go deep into any given theme, maybe just I'd love to have you share your high level perspective on, you know, on digital currency, on, you know, these kind of public networks, blockchains networks and the use of digital currency in that context. [00:17:32][124.7]

Lawrence H. Summers: [00:17:36] I've got a view which I think probably puts me intermediate between the Bitcoin evangelists and the high traditionalists who see no reason for it. Seems to me that the case for crypto historically rests on three pillars of which I think one has a quite substantial chance of being valid and important and sufficient to support a very big table. And I don't particularly believe the other two. [00:18:19][42.6]

Lawrence H. Summers: [00:18:20] One case is a case that governments are going to debauch all the real current, all the traditional currencies, that the pressures of rising debt, dealing with crises, standing behind banking systems, all of that is going to lead to hyper inflation. And then people aren't going to want to be putting their money in currencies. They're going to be wanting to be putting their money in gold. But there are a variety of problems with gold. And so Internet exchangeable gold is going to, in some proper form, is going to become immensely valuable. That's possible. I don't read existing currencies as being on their way to being debauched. Seems to me that while certain monetary aggregates as measured have risen, there are good technical ways to understand that. And you look ahead at market expectations from index bonds. People think that the real problem is that central banks in Japan, Europe and the United States won't be able to meet their inflation targets of two percent. We're going to going to get inflation up to two percent even over the next generation. So that might be a wrong bet. But I think the odds that these that traditional currencies are going to become so inflationary and it's going to be so difficult when they become inflationary to earn an interest rate on them, that people are going to be seeking some separate, really scarce, hard asset. I, I just don't think that that's going to drive a major crypto industry. Second thing I think is that I don't think crypto is going to be accepted as some kind of libertarian paradise. I don't. I know that there are people who believe that financial privacy in terms of the ability to transfer money is a fundamental human right, and that without it, there will be substantial infringements on freedom. And I understand those arguments. But I guess my attitude is more captured by the fact that the 500 euro note is always referred to as the Bin Laden, and that suggests something about what when you have super privacy, tends to be a lot; the result. So I don't think governments will permit tax evaders, money launderers, privacy traders and zealots to use this technology to advance their privacy relative to what they have now. I think, if anything, around concerns about regulation, corruption, tax evasion. Governments will want less financial privacy over time and they will succeed in getting what they want. [00:21:51][210.4]

Lawrence H. Summers: [00:21:52] I think the case for all of this innovation will lie in the fact that there's a ridiculous degree of friction. In today's world, around doing quite complex things, whether it's the eight percent that it can cost me to send money to my kids, eight percent and two days, that it can cost money, cost me to send money to my kid when their kids do. My kids in a study abroad program, whether it's the two and a half plus percent that it costs me every time I use a Visa card in a department store, whether it is the three bucks I have to pay for the routine act of getting cash out. And I could go on with examples of this kind. I think the friction, friction both in terms of monetary payment and friction in terms of effort that's involved in exchange is excessive. And I think that the friction isn't just coming from the greed of the middle men, middle people, although there is greed of the middle people. It's coming from the various difficulties and challenges associated with mutual trust, as you know better than I, computer science theory on which a lot of this is based, was referred to as the Byzantine generals problem. How do you get a group of people who don't trust each other to nonetheless be able to do business together and innovation in institutional form that permits interaction where it otherwise wasn't possible? That's what the Common Law Corporation was. That's what the contract was. And I think that kind of innovation that's involved in coming out of the crypto community is very fundamental. And we tend to associate the idea of innovation with new machines and new medicines, but it's also new ways of doing things. This is also an institutional social right. And so I think it's a very, very important kind of innovation. But my own view is that that's where the future lies. And I think it could be a very large and substantial future. But I'm not going to go with the arguments about all the other currencies are going to be debauched or the arguments about the centrality of privacy. [00:25:05][192.1]

Jeremy Allaire: [00:25:06] Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, that our focus, as you know, is, you know, we built this standard U.S. dollar coin USDC. It's how do you how do you take the leading reserve currency and make it available as a digital currency and get those, you know, trust less transactions, the speed of the Internet, the cost efficiency. And the program ability to compose ability. All these things you can do with it? I think that's very, very exciting. And we're seeing that grow very fast. And and it's it's leading into a number of interesting questions which do relate to the question of how governments are going to respond. And I would I would say there's sort of two areas to maybe to talk through. I think. One is is really the that in some ways the threat that things like Stablecoins might pose to governments around the world where, you know, effectively you have digital currencies that can be accessed with any digital wallet on any smartphone by anyone anywhere. And as I like to say, you know, people in picture Latin American country or maybe a South Asian country or or what have you can vote with their smartphones. And in the same way that they said, hey, I want to I wanted to go over the top the Internet and have a free communications platform like what's happened. I don't care about my local telephone company or my government regulated communication system. I'm just gonna use the Internet. And, you know, these kinds of digital currency innovations allow people to kind of have an economic system that goes over the top of the Internet and then people can choose to participate in that. And, you know, will governments allow that? Will they have a choice? It's a very interesting question. And then the other is sort of ultimately the relationship to central banks. But I want to maybe start with the first and and hear your thoughts on, you know, this can happen very fast. You know, you talk about, you know, Libra and and rising growth of global stablecoins, the G20 and FSB. Coming up with policies on this to say, hey, what are the rules of the road for these? But very quickly, we can have people everywhere sort of choosing which currency system they want to participate in. A lot more easily than they can today. [00:27:21][135.4]

Lawrence H. Summers: [00:27:26] I think it's a very hard thing to know The metric system really is better than the English system. Simpler words. Any calculation is easier. It's internally coherent. Between weights and volumes, it's just better. But the inertia of the network turns out to cause things to carry on for a very long time. And I don't think we know how much inertia surrounds private behavior around a national currency. There is a phenomenon that has been observed at various junctures in Argentina, has been observed at various other junctures of dollarization when a national currency is sufficiently chaotic, incoherent and uncertain. People start holding the hundred dollar bills and start holding fifty dollar bills at U.S. banks that are happy to ship them there. And people start quoting prices in dollars because who knows what a price in pesos will mean. And economies become gradually dolerite and then the dollar is their de facto currency. The fact is you don't have to hold paper wads. Now you can do it with your cell phone. [00:29:04][98.5]

Lawrence H. Summers: [00:29:12] They probably operate to the direction of reducing the threshold of getting out of the local currency system. Right. On the other hand, when people were getting into dollars, it was like the dollar with George Washington and 250 years of U.S. tradition and all that. And it's not that there haven't been incidents in the crypto currency community, such as to cause alarm. So I think it's going to be a source of pressure. And there may be economies where there's a code where there's a conversion. I suspect the general law about technology that things take longer to happen than you think they will. And then they happen faster than you thought they could. I suspect that's going to be operative. Operative here. [00:30:14][62.8]

Jeremy Allaire: [00:30:15] Yeah, sort of pick pick your time frame. We're seeing interesting indications of that. And, you know, we all remember the Arab Spring. And, you know, when you know, all of a sudden people had the freedom to communicate with each other and all of a sudden they were able to overthrow regimes with the amount of fiscal and monetary stress that exists in a number of markets. And that's sharpening, obviously, you know. And and then this technology becoming kind of effectively widely available, scalable, etc. It's possible we could see some of that accelerate. It does. It does tie to, I think, a larger question, which is the advent of global digital currencies, the fact that a a a liability of the Federal Reserve, a dollar, a liability, the Federal Reserve can exist as a as a digital asset that can effectively exist anywhere the Internet exists. The fact that a liability of the people's bank of China can exist as a as a digital currency, where effectively any Internet computer in the world can now settle directly with the People's Bank of China. That hasn't been anticipated. We had a kind of superstructure of the Bretton Woods structure, the swift structure. We had this sort of superstructure and now these sort of transactions and currencies can just happen directly over the Internet. You know, I wonder if if some of this leads us into rethinking ideas of global currencies. You know, that's the idea of, you know, synthetic global digital currencies that are composed of, say, a Chinese yuan, tejal, euro, a digital dollar. And if that becomes more palpable, this could be a long time. [00:32:02][106.8]

Lawrence H. Summers: [00:32:02] I do think. I think this does have what I might call the Esperanto problem, Esperanto might have been a better language, any of the other languages, and might well be that everybody learning Esperanto really was a better thing. But people were kind of pretty attached to what they were attached to. And it was never quite able to get off, get off the ground and get to a critical mass. And so I I'm sure there'll be a variety of kinds of innovation. But I'd be kind of surprised. And, you know, I've been surprised many times before. If we got to some kind of global digital currency, that was what people thought in terms of in my lifetime. Now, I could be wrong, I think. And I think we will see a ton of innovation that will work through Stablecoins and that will permit cross-border exchange with more with more ease. But at the end of the day, I think the power of a nation state is pretty is pretty strong and finance is pretty fundamental. But I wouldn't expect it all to be swept away. Yeah. I think the model is you had all these phone companies and they were really powerful and they were kind of central. And then you sort of had Skype and they didn't have a business anymore. And nobody could mess with people's ability to communicate. Right. I I'd be surprised if that was the story of the next 10 or 20 years in financial innovation with that degree of starkness. But I wouldn't be shocked. [00:33:57][114.5]

Jeremy Allaire: [00:33:58] Yeah. I think one of the things that we've tracked really closely and I've spent a lot of time both in China and and you know and know the folks who are, you know, building their digital currency. I think there is this desire for China to play a lot, much larger role in the world economy. And they obviously are there has been a desire to have the yohn and play a larger role in trade and settlement. And and I think there's also been a desire to have a effectively a financial system that's not entirely controlled by, you know, the West and Swift and with the development of that, the Chinese digital currency. In fact, they've created a model where a household, a a nation state can kind of directly transact and settle with China over the Internet. And you don't need swift. You don't need any of the regulations that control that. You can just bilaterally over the Internet, start to try to achieve that. And obviously, there's sort of the the infrastructure overlay of the mountain road and and and the kind of growth aspirations there. But, you know, I wonder whether we do see a digital currency, native monetary systems that start to compete. [00:35:31][93.1]

Lawrence H. Summers: [00:35:35] You might be right. And it's certainly a it's certainly a possibility. I think that all of the things you said about China were true. I think the more fundamental thing is that they want to control the lives of their citizens, including the financial lives of their citizens, including the ability of their citizens to do what their citizens want to do, which is to take their cash out of the country. And I think that a system that doesn't think a system that freely enables moving wealth and resources out of the country is going to be a system that makes them deeply nervous. And I think a system that is so restricted that it isn't possible to do that isn't going to be much of a global digital currency. And so I'm not seeing this with nearly to say it's that the crypto community. Is I have to confess. [00:36:35][60.2]

Jeremy Allaire: [00:36:35] I think that's right. I mean that the not opening the capital account and not allowing R&D too to trade freely and liquid and so on is sort of the gating, major gating piece here. But now that the mechanism to allow, you know, army to have global reach is is this are built it and they all they need to use the Internet. So it does. It does even within the constraints that the intense constraints that they put around and the control tower control structure that they put around it, it does at least create a way to build an R&D denominated set of economic activity that does not depend on a dollar settled swift system. [00:37:19][44.1]

Lawrence H. Summers: [00:37:21] So there may be some of that and I mean a different context it's been my view that the U.S. needs to scale back its abuse of the Swift system to pursue its more parochial foreign policy objectives. I think if you want to operate a trusted public utility, you can derive some private benefit from the fact that you're operating a public utility. But if you try to derive too much. People no longer trust you to operate the public utility. And I think the U.S. has been pushing that margin in the way it's made use of the swift system. Yeah. But if you ask me, is that going to play out that we're going to keep pushing it and not take feedback from bad responses to the point where things are likely to tip towards the Chinese digital currency, taking on a large part of global commerce? I wouldn't say impossible. That wouldn't be where I'd be betting. [00:38:22][60.8]

Jeremy Allaire: [00:38:23] Yeah, it's the whole bypass swift thing is obviously not just China. It's sort of even things like USDC, the stablecoins like you people can transacted directly. There's there's not there's no swift messages. There's no reference. [00:38:37][14.3]

Lawrence H. Summers: [00:38:38] I, I, I think it's a hugely important issue and it's one that I've been wanting to study the relationship between this innovation and the power of the swift system now. [00:38:50][11.9]

Jeremy Allaire: [00:38:50] Absolutely. Well, look, this has been a really wonderful conversation. Covered a lot of ground. Deeply appreciate it, Larry. [00:38:58][8.1]

Lawrence H. Summers: [00:38:59] And I've really enjoyed the chance to be with you. And I've admired your various innovative activities and those of Circle over the years. Thank you very much. [00:39:07][8.5]

Jeremy Allaire: [00:39:08] Thank you. Have a great day. [00:39:09][1.1]

Lawrence H. Summers: [00:39:10] Bye bye. [00:39:10][0.2]

Jeremy Allaire: [00:39:11] Bye. [00:39:11][0.0]

Jeremy Allaire: [00:39:14] Well, some really tremendous thinking and perspective from the secretary, really, really pleased to have him sharing perspective here today. The tail end of that conversation actually really leads us into a topic which is actually going to be the topic of the next episode of The Money Movement, which will be in two weeks. We're going to be having a session on the implications of global digital currency. From a governance perspective, how can how can global digital currencies function? How should they be governed? How should central banks interact with them. The private sector. What's that inter inter interaction of those? And we're going to have two fantastic guests joining us. One is Sheila Warren, who leads Blockchains efforts for the World Economic Forum and in particular has put together the Digital Currency Global Governance Consortium, which is a consortium of central bankers, major financial institutions, leading crypto market participants that are trying to drive towards policy and technology standards around global digital currency. And Dante Disparte, who is vice chairman of the Libra Association, which itself is creating a form of governance around its new global digital currency project as well. So it should be an excellent discussion in a couple of weeks. [00:40:46][92.4]

[00:40:47] Have you enjoyed today? And until next time. Stay well. Stay safe and stay informed. [00:40:52][4.6]

[00:40:53] Thank you all. [00:40:53][0.0]

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Episode Highlights

Former Treasury Secretary Lawrence Summers on Chinese currency adoption and the 'Esperanto' problem

Former Secretary of Treasury Lawrence Summers on why patterns of historical economic downturn emerge

Former Treasury Secretary on the 3 phases of economic collapse

Former Treasury Secretary Larry Summers and Circle CEO Jeremy Allaire talk digital currency adoption

Guests in this episode

Larry Summers

Charles W. Eliot University Professor & President Emeritus at Harvard, Former Secretary of the Treasury for President Clinton of